Posts
When I had Rich at Rivendell build me a set of 700C wheels for my touring Trek, he used Velocity Synergy Rims, with the asymmetrical rear holes to minimize tension disparities. Supposedly really nice rims.
But here's the problem: Most 700C tires don't fit. The first tires I installed were Panaracer Pasela folding 700x35, and although they seemed loose, they worked. But when I went to put on a set of Schwalbe Marathon 700x37 wire beads, they were so much too huge that they nearly fell off on their own. There was no way to get them to stay on the rims. Thinking it might be a bad pair of tires (what are the chances of that?), I tried some Panaracer Pasela non-folding 700x32s. Same problem. It really looks like the rims are simply the wrong size.
The photo above shows a distinct gap between the tire and the top edge of the rim flange. I am easily sticking a tire iron all the way through. I could install the tire with my elbows, or with my hands tied behind my back, just using my lips. I could take the tire off using only my left pinky. There's no way that tire can hold an inner tube under pressure. The tube just squirts out--explosively.
When I contacted Grant at Rivendell, he said he had never heard of this problem, thinking (I'm sure) that I just don't know how to install tires. But I'm 50, and I have installed probably hundreds of tires over 35 years of bike tinkering. I know how. And these don't fit. Not that he was unhelpful. I just think he couldn't imagine that I was sane. (Although he was nice about it.)
That was a lot to pay for wheels that don't take most tires. They're only just barely useful.
If Rivendell were closer, I'd take the wheel in for them to try mounting the tires. Or if I had another set of wheels, I'd send one to Rivendell. But they're in California, I'm in Michigan, and I need these wheels. At least the folding Panaracers fit.
Supposedly, Paselas are good tires, but I had one fail last summer. I was within a whisker of a disasterous blowout on tour (carrying 35 lbs) when the sidewall developed an unhealthy bulge.
As an experiment, I've ordered some Kenda folding 700x38s. I know, I know, Kendas are junk. But that Panaracer last summer was junk, too, so you never know. I'll report back how (if) the Kendas work.
I have built two sets of wheels with Velocity Synergy rims. One was a road set, Dura-Ace hubs and the other set for touring with Phil Wood hubs. I mounted Jack Browns on the road wheels and the fit was good - nothing unusual. The touring set has Pasela 35 folding tires, also a good fit. I have a bit less than 500 miles on each set. No flats, no problems
ReplyDeleteActually, I have also had good luck with Kevlar bead (folding) tires. Pasela TG 35s work fine, as do my current set of Kenda Kwik Roller 38s (also folding bead). I have never gotten a set of wire beads to fit.
ReplyDeleteI have a pair of Vel Synergy rims with Schwabe Marathon 28mm x 700 tyres. No problemo. Great rims for a touring bike with steel frame.
ReplyDeleteMaybe I just got a lemon set of rims (or tires). I would continue the experiment by buying more Marathons (which would be my tires of choice), but that's a pretty expensive experiment if they don't fit.
ReplyDeleteDid you ever sort this out? I am interested in pairing up a set of synergys and Vitorria Randonneur 700x32c tires and am now worried that I may have fitment issues. Any further insight?
ReplyDeleteAs far as I can tell (based on communications with Grant at Rivendell and others), this seems to be a problem unique to my rims. Or tires. It would make no sense for Velocity to make rims that don't fit standard tires. I have not discovered anyone else with this problem.
ReplyDeleteI'm planning on trying other wire-bead tires, to see if any of them fit. The kevlar-bead tires fit fine.
Bruce, thanks for creating this post. I also have had great difficulty mounting certain tires on to the Velocity Synergy rims, which I had purchased from Rivendell during late 2008 (I don't know when Rivendell purchased them from Velocity). The first tires I attempted to mount to them were Col de la Vie's. Although they were very loose on the rim, the beads seated and the tubes did not blow. The next set of tires, Schwalbe Marathon 650B's (nice tires, purchase from Rivendell), were a nightmare to attempt to mount. This is when I realized that Velocity had designed these rims too small. I also have years of experience mounting tires to rims. I take my time. A lot of time. I seat the bead with concentration and I inflate the tires very slowly, examining the bead around the entire circumference of the tire/rim, on both sides. I don't overinflate tires. I usually inflate them between the lowest and highest pressure limits suggested by the manufacturer (now I'm going to attempt to obtain the 15 percent tire drop suggested by Jan Heine). Twice the tube exploded before I could reduce the tube/tire pressure, and another tube blew after I had ridden a block from my home. All of the tube blowouts occurred on the rear tube/tire. During two of these explosions, the rim was bent due to the force of the blowout. I ordered another Velocity Synergy rim from Rivendell, and it appears that this one may also have been designed too small for it's intended use. The third tire that I've mounted on these rims, Fatty Rumpkins, have worked much better and I only came close once to having the rear tube blow during inflation. I was able to reduce the pressure in time, this time. The fourth tire, Schwalbe Fatties (45mm) fit much better on these rims and I haven't had any trouble. I recently purchased and received a set of Grand Bois Hetres, which I have yet to mount to these rims. In summary, Velocity designed these rims undersized for their intended use. They have actually admitted this, as described in the most recent (Winter 2009) issue of Bicycle Quarterly. Smaller diameter tires seem to be more difficult to mount than wider ones, which makes sense. I may return the first damaged rim to Velocity for replacement. The current Velocity rear rim I'm using on my bike is bent also, but not too bad. Velocity has scrapped the undersized rims and has remedied this design flaw for this rim model. I feel Velocity is a company with high standards, and which makes durable, useful and good looking bicycle rims. It's not that big of a deal, but it has sure been frustrating at times. Best wishes with everything, Bruce.
ReplyDeleteExcuse no profile name - I'll get round to it soon - are the rims a size smaller and incorrectly labelled? Like others I'm thinking about using these rims (in my case for flat bar roadie - 32 mm tire).
ReplyDeleteI don't know. The experiments continue. I'm trying different sizes and brands of wire beads to see if any fit.
ReplyDeleteI'm fairly sure this is an anomaly, not a universal problem with these rims.
Hello. I posted a comment to this post last week or so and I came back to check for a response, but I see that my original comment is not visible. Anyway, I've had a handful of problems with Velocity Synergy rims, only with the 650B size though. I purchased my first set through Rivendell Bicycle Works during late 2008 and I had to replace the rear of one of these due to a blowout during inflating a tube/tire. This happened with two different tires: Schwalbe Marathon and Col de la Vie. Again, both 650B. I have changed many, many tubes and tires and I take my time. I made sure the bead was set in the bead seat each time and I inflated slowly, then deflated, then inflated again, and so on to ensure that the bead seated properly. Twice while I was inflating I couldn't deflate quickly enough before the tube blew, and twice the explosion dented the inside of the rim. Both times on the rear wheel. The third blowout occurred shortly after I had inflated and was halfway around the block from my home. It is not an anomaly. However, when I placed a Schwalbe Fatty, Fatty Rumpkin and Grand Bois Hetre on these rims, they worked fine (I am currently riding the Hetres on these rims and no problems). It was the smaller Schwalbe Marathons and Col de la Vie's that seemed quite impossible to fit to these rims. I feel that Velocity is an honest company which produces wonderful bicycle rims. I think they just made a mistake on this batch of 650B Synergy rims made during the time frame of 2007/2008 or thereabouts. The most recent (Winter 2009/2010) issue of Bicycle Quarterly has a side bar in which this issue is clarified. Best wishes with everything. David
ReplyDelete(p.s. I hope this works this time)
Sorry. I thought I had OK'd the last comment.
ReplyDeleteYour experience with the 650B rim sounds exactly like my situation, complete with the blow-out halfway around the block. Perhaps they have batches of rims that aren't quite the right diameter.
So far, I have had no wire bead tires stay on the rims. Only kevlar bead tires seem to work, perhaps because the bead can be shaped to fit the rim.
The rims have no size label on them that I can see. When I measured the bead circumference, it seemed significantly smaller than the nominal circumference (at least according to Sheldon's tables).
I learned something from your comments, David. I didn't realize there was an acknowledged issue with Velocity's rim sizes. I would have thought that the folks at Rivendell might have known about it.
ReplyDeleteThis is particularly frustrating for me. The bike I put these wheels on is a converted Trek 620, which originally had 27" wheels. I find that the 700c wheels fit nicely, and they allow just enough extra room that I can run 38mm tires and still have them fit in the fenders. But 38 is about the widest that will fit. So I'm stuck with whatever folding 38's I can find, a somewhat limited selection. I have actually liked the Kendas I currently have on: cheap, sturdy, pretty fast, with a dynamo strip, even. Unfortunately, Kenda no longer makes them, and they have no equivalent tire to replace them. I suppose I'll go back to Pasela Tourguards. They're a lot more expensive and not as sturdy, but at least I know I can get them.
Bruce,
ReplyDeleteI know this is a while since you've posted the issue, but I just had a set of Synergy rims built up for some light touring and have experienced the exact same issues you're describing. Upon measuring, the diameter of my synergy rims actually appears 2-3 mm smaller than the diameter of some other 700c rims I have. Did you ever resolve your issue? Did Velocity give you new rims, or did you just try to find tires that would work? I'm looking for some 700x28 tires that would work. I've already had 3 blow outs on my Marathon 700x28 tires - the one time I was able to ride, I made it about 400m from my house when the tire bead popped out, got everything jammed up in the brake area and blew.
These wheels looked great for my intended purpose, but now I'm just really frustrated and also worried - I am not sure I want to use them and risk a blowout when I am riding with myself + 20-30lbs of gear, possibly downhill. I just wanted to check with you to see if you had heard anything else and see how you resolved your situation. Thanks for posting your story here- this helps me realize I'm not crazy!
John
Hi, John.
ReplyDeleteI never really pursued it with Synergy. I sent them an email that they either didn't get or ignored.
I have found that only folding bead tires work. I've had luck with several sizes of Panaracer Paselas and Kendas. I have never gotten a wire bead tire to work, regardless of width or manufacturer. I think the folding bead can better shape itself to the too-small diameter. I've never had a folding bead tire blow out the side. The wire bead tires I tried always did it.
Bruce
Yep, it's true. The rims are undersized. I was able to get the tire beads to stay on the rims by gently inflating the tires to the point where the bead could be gradually worked down below the "hook" in the rim and then gradually bringing the tires up to pressure. Kevlar beads seems to be generally tighter and easier to work with than steel ones. Disappointing, given what I paid for the things.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know if this has been fixed or not? I was about to order a set of these rims and then came acros this blog -- now find myself concerned!
ReplyDeleteI have contacted velocityusa asking for a comment. They ignored my last email (or never received it). If they know that this isn't a problem now (or perhaps never was, except for a few isolate cases), I'd love to hear from them.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteVelocity responded! Here's what Jeff at Velocity USA wrote:
ReplyDelete"Your rim problem is on the rare end of the
scale. We did have trouble with the 650b rims in the beginning, not so much the 700c. When the whole 650b rim gained popularity, rim and tire
manufactures went off there own calculations. So there were some discrepancies with fit in the beginning, we later modified our numbers
to match the tires. We have not had any issues since. We are a pretty small company and can change and make corrections fast. And can trace
back problems from certain batches of rims very rapidly."
Great. They know of the problem.
ReplyDeleteDid they offer a solution to you?
I live an hour from their US headquarters, so they suggested I bring the wheels by. I haven't done it yet.
ReplyDeleteI'm just about to start building a new bike with 700c wheels and I want to use an off-center rim in the rear. I'd love to hear if you've visited Velocity yet or if anyone has any more information about this issue. When they say "We did have trouble with the 650b rims in the beginning, not so much the 700c" it concerns me because they didn't say they've had NO issues with the 700c, nor does this imply that they have corrected that issue if there was one.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know of an alternative rim from another maker? A strong, boxy, eyeleted 700c rim of similar width and with an off-center option for the rear?
2013 DT Swiss RR440:
DeleteBox section, Welded/machined, and eyeleted.
450g.
24h, 28h or 32h.
I haven't visited them yet.
ReplyDeleteI have seen the last of these rims. I replaced the front one with a dynamo-hub wheel, and the back one self-destructed. (See my post of May 12.)
ReplyDeleteHere's my final post about these rims: http://brucebike.blogspot.com/2012/05/rip-velocity-synergy-rims.html
ReplyDeleteOK. It wasn't my final comment. It seems that the issue has come up on the Riv users' group discussion recently. Others have had the same problem with cracking Synergy O/C rear rims. No mention of the size problem, however.
ReplyDelete